Okay, so I just wanted to say good morning to everyone. I think it's still morning everywhere in the US right now, and welcome you to our annual webinar, just to tell you a little bit about the origin of this webinar we wanted to provide an all inclusive training opportunity that includes staff and support staff through the actual PI that might be applying for the grant because any big grant requires a team effort, and everybody you know a lot of the support staff these are career positions where we want you to know what's going on and our PI success is really dependent on the support staff, being able to be at their best game. So, I, I'm, I'm Rebecca Rocco Penner I'm from UC San Diego, I'd like my co moderator to introduce herself also. Hi everyone I'm Jamie Lee, I'm a breast imager from the University of Washington. My personal experience with T32s is having been the beneficiary of one in my training. And now as I progress through my career as a physician scientist I know how critical it is to fill our pipeline of future investigators so it's really great that RS&A is sponsoring this webinar. I'm also a beneficiary of a T32 training program at UC San Diego, and was hired on faculty after that. And do you feel that that was an important step in continuing on into a clinician scientist career. So I'd like to just go right now into introducing our first speaker, or actually Jamie's going to introduce our first speaker, and we'll get started. Yeah, happy to do so I get to introduce Dr. Pamela Woodard. She is a human role, Wilson professor of radiology and professor of biomedical engineering, internal medicine and pediatrics at the Mellencrant Institute at Wash U in St. Louis. She's also the vice chair of radiology research facilities, with oversight of Mellencrant's 11 research facilities, including the Center for Clinical Imaging. She's a program director for NIH NIBIB T32 program training opportunities and translational imaging and research. And in case you're wondering that the acronym for them is top tier so excellent acronym. Now in its sixth year. She's also a PR multiple PI on multiple NIH R01 grants, and I served on study section so she brings tremendous experience and and perspective to this talk. Thank you. Okay, so it looks like I am able to share my screen let's see if we can go ahead and. Nice. Good. Yeah, I think I need to I'll go to the presenter mode. Good. Are you able to see that. Yes. Excellent. All right. Yeah, so, um, as Jamie mentioned, the reason why I'm here talking to you today is that we have a T32. We applied for this six years ago so we've gone through one five year cycle and applied and got our next cycle funded so we're on our way, hopefully to through the 10th, you know, we'll, we'll at least have this through the three year 10. And, you know, I'm just going to talk a little bit about the goals of the training grant and then, you know, how you how you apply for one and so you know the goal of a T32 training grant. You know, all in all, but even specifically as a clinician scientist training grant and radiology. NIH has these to train individuals, so that you can have people to feed the pipeline for research leadership roles, and they talk about you know feeding the pipeline and it used to be just academics but they broadened it globally to, you know, industry and government. And it's intended to provide a strong foundation and to expose trainees to high quality research training. And, you know, especially especially they have a whole section now on experimental rigor in design and methods and I'll talk a little bit about that. It allows the program director to select trainees who are committed to a research career. The goal would be to have people who, you know, don't leave the program to go into private practice but to pick people who have made a dedicated, you know, investment in their own research careers, and then to provide instruction to those individuals so that they can then go on and get extramural research support so you know help them get K awards, get junior investigator funding, so that they can go on and build a true research program. And this is most of this is taken from the PA the program announcement for T32s. So as the T32 training grant can be either pre or post doctoral. Most are two years long per trainee, however, the NIBIB has clinicians and scientists training grants that are one year long and permit some clinical time so you know you need to do a minimum of nine months of research but those individuals could take they might be able to do a rotation especially if there's a, you know, clinical translational component. And so it's ideal for fitting into a radiology resident program. So there are various formats different programs have done this different ways some with the T32 year within the four year program, we do that. We have been giving research residents, 48 weeks of research and so this fit in nicely. requirements. Others will do it after we have had some of our trainees who have done the four years they don't want to take a year off during their residency, they've done it as a fellowship year. And there's one program. I think UCSD or at least one of them, which does their T32 years of sort of a preliminary year between internship and residency. So, the T32s at Mallinckrodt, there are three in our department. One is the one that is a clinician scientist training program and this is the second one listed here. And so this is the one that that I lead for our residents and for our fellows. There's also a predoctoral program that I interface with quite a bit and I'm on their steering committee. Doctors Joe Culver and Jody O'Sullivan run this and this is predoctoral it's for PhD students. So many are in engineering but it's an imaging sciences pathway. And then we just recently got one from the NIA and it's a postdoctoral PhD program, specifically looking at training individuals who are radio chemists and want to work in a aging and neuroimaging space in terms of translational imaging research. So, those are the three that we have but I'm going to focus mostly on the clinician scientist program. So you know at the NIH, there are a number of institutes I mean there are multiple institutes that you could apply to in terms of training grants. As I mentioned, the NIBIB has those that are really well suited to a radiology residency program or fellowship program. Of those, there are six that I know of in the United States, there's us Johns Hopkins, UCSF, UCSD, UPenn and UT Southwestern and you'll hear from some folks from some of those programs today in this presentation in this seminar. So, as you start, one of the first things you'd like to do is to contact the project officer or the program officer, and the program officer at the NIBIB is Zainab Aram, one individual, and she is very willing to take your emails and will set up a phone if you are just starting out, what they would like is kind of a white paper. So when I first did this, she was not the program officer I didn't write a white paper but I did you know like a two pager type thing. So I would talk to the project officer and kind of discuss what the goals of the NIBIB were. And it's very helpful because I think, you know, when I first put mine together I thought, well, the more the merrier in order to fill up both MDs, MD PhDs and PhDs, but it was clear that they thought that that was too diverse and they really wanted me to focus on a clinician scientist program. So I think those conversations are very helpful to have. And the other thing I wanted to emphasize is that you really want to begin early. So, you want to start at least six months prior, more if you have it I mean it's certainly possible to do it in a shorter period of time, the one that the department just got, they only about two or three months to get it done but they had the benefit that I had all my tables filled out for the last one and so I was able to sort of hand them the tables because a lot of the mentors were the same. And as I mentioned, you want to contact Dr. Arum. And then, because, you know, to start early you want to start assembling things. So, and this is true for for those who are in the grants office as well. So you will work together because it does take a village as, as the title says, because you'll need support from your institution so some of the support will be your salary support because the T32 grants do not support the salary of the program directors, they support salary for the trainees, but they don't support the salary for your, you know, administrative director or for your program directors, so that will have to come from your institution. It provides insurance health insurance for the trainee but not for the trainees family. I wanted somebody. I shouldn't say this but somebody in leadership said, Well, can we just hire single people and I said no we can't do that. So the institution does have to, you know, provide that additional support and often the salary provided per trainee for an MD is, you know, isn't the same salary that your residents get so it will, you know, most of the depending depends upon your project year or your regret you know your PDI year, but it's it's on the order of like maybe 56 to 58,000. So if you know you're paying your residents more than that, and you want people to do this program, your department's going to have to pay that difference, because otherwise nobody's going to say when I do this for a pay cut. So that's something you can get. And you might be able to get an additional institutional slot. I was able to do this from the School of Engineering and the provost, so there's a big push to try to get the School of Engineering to work with radiology and somebody had made a donation for that purpose, and they needed to use the funds and so I was able to get a $50,000 slot per year. In addition to what we get from the NIH for somebody who's working with, you know, a mentor in the School of Engineering or has a project in the School of Engineering, and you'll have to assemble things like lists of the other how do they, you know, they want to what you'll have to address in the grant, how they can be leveraged but they shouldn't have overlap so again you know shouldn't have another clinician scientist T32 program for residents, because they will overlap. And then you'll have a list of mentors their, their training their publications their grant data for multiple multiple tables. So those are the things that really take a lot of time I mean that the tables are daunting when you first look at them so it's good to start those early. So who should be your program director or your mentors, you want to select one or more program directors who are already established investigators, and that, you know, they've had a proven track record of training individuals they have have, you know, one of the questions that will be asked is, you know, how many mentees has this person had you know where have they gone what type of paper how many papers have they published. So all that information is is requested. Also, how much NIH or federal funding, does that person have so the program director should have federal funding. And so you can demonstrate that. And then the preceptors and the mentors should also have strong records as mentors and researchers and have NIH funding. I've put in what I've done is for people who don't have NIH funding that are early in their career sometimes I'll put them in as career or peer mentors. But for main mentors. I have not listed anyone who does not have an age funding and point out the mentors don't all have to be from radiology, you know really anyone who's doing imaging at your institution I mean if it's somebody in engineering if it's somebody in neurology if it's somebody in, you know in cardiology, you can list really list them all as potential mentors, as long as they have a demonstrated track record of training and have NIH funding. And the composition of mentors, you know, the more the better as I said, they don't have to be in radiology for steering committee, you will have some radiologists but you also want members of supporting departments, and you'll need bios of the above, and your steering committee and your mentorship group should be a diverse group of individuals so they want to see women men underrepresented individuals. You know it's not a good look to say we're going to have all white men as our as our mentors they want to be able to show be ensured that you know you can attract a diverse training population. And the foundation for that are a diverse set of mentors. And as I mentioned, you know, we had a lot of people who are interested in starting off, you know, as a mentor on a K award or on the T 30 twos but didn't have funding or maybe had a K award and so you know they had funding but they hadn't done substantial mentoring yet. And so I put those individuals on as you can some people call them career mentors or peer mentors. They're sort of individuals who are like the next step beyond the T 32 and so these individuals, you can list them in the special role that is both helping the group transition, the T 32 trainees transition to it to the, you know, their laboratory and their, their attending stage. And so it helps those individuals themselves because it demonstrates that they now are starting to mentor so helpful in many ways. And so, in the grant you'll write a description of the research training program plan. And, you know, it's helpful to get your tables in order because a lot of what you write in the text is going to be based on the table so how many you know how many train, how many mentors you have, you know how much funding they have all that information that you get from the tables will go into your text as a summary, and you'll want a description full description of your program diagrams are kind of nicest this I did a snag it so it's a little blurry but you know program directors steering committee faculty mentors. And then summaries of participating departments programs and mentors and so I kind of did this you know this is the summary of mentor imaging research by modality. So you know, who do we have a nuclear medicine CT MRI. You know if our trainees wanted to work with those individuals in the program you also include coursework. You know how much time they'll be in the lab. What seminars they have we do a Monday morning seminar from seven to eight so even those on the research track who haven't started the T32 they can, you know, attend this before they go off to to start their, their clinical day, but seminars on that include things like, you know, navigating the IRB navigating the NIH, you know, putting together an RS and a training grant, you know, things like that or you know who do you contact if you need regulatory assistance for FDA or DRC. Who do you contact, if you're interested in developing artificial intelligence experience. So, those types of seminars that give people guidance, and then we kind of do a little grant writing session, you know for several those where people exchange their set portions of grants. You'll list other enriching experiences. They'll want a description of the program assessment and this is if it's a renewal, because one of the things you will include is either a description of how you're going to survey the trainees for their opinions on the success of the program, and any results that you have from previous years so if it's a new program, you'll need to state how are you going to distribute a survey and how frequently will you do that. Then there's something called a plan for instruction and the responsible conduct of research. That's essentially a section on ethics, and you know how you will instruct the end of the individuals on that. The trainees on that. And then there's a new section on instruction and methods for enhancing reproducibility so it's research rigor and reproducibility, and a very big focus so the both of those sections are three pages long two to three pages long. And then of course a multiple program director leadership plan. So we started off for responsible conduct of research, and we have something called perks at wash you. And so you know what's nice is that you probably don't have to recreate all of these programs yourself. And so, for the responsible conduct of research, the training office at Washington University holds this once or twice a year. It's helpful if you as a PI can speak at these are the first submission I had years ago. It was very interesting they said well, you're not actually one of the speakers, and I'm like well yeah this, this is for like 60 training grants at the university. And because the reviewer said that I went and volunteered and so you know now, like every other year I give some lectures in, you know, for for this program. So, instruction and methods for enhancing reproducibility. And this, we did kind of develop from scratch. But we have done it for all three training programs, you know all three t 30 twos. And so we do this all together and this is in the fall. And so for 12 weeks it turned out to be eight weeks for starters we'll try to expand it but eight weeks seem to work out well. We did pizza so we brought in pizza for 30 and then had different topics on research rigor and reproducibility and some of them journal clubs where, you know, people would be assigned to a given article and pull out, you know, talk about the study design or look at flaws in the study design. And that actually went over quite well I was kind of surprised that at 430 people would have the energy for this but it's amazing what pizza can do. And it was got good pizza. So, the other things you'll need you'll need an external advisory committee. And so those individuals should be comprised of three to five program directors of other similar T 32 programs. So, for instance, I am on the external advisory committee for UCSD and UCSF. I just recently was just asked for another, maybe UT Southwestern I'm trying to remember, but, and the same way, you know, john gore from Vanderbilt who had a PhD program was our external advisory committee chair, and then we had folks from other on our external advisory committee, and it usually meets twice during the five year period. They, they suggest, like once a year but that could be a bit much because sometimes it takes a you know a whole day for the presentations but you want to do it at least once you're, you know, I think twice as good like maybe a year or two to kind of look at the program or any, you know, redirectional changes that you need to make and then maybe in year four just as you're about to apply for your next year 32, because I'll give you advice and, you know, things that you want to, you might want to change or add the, they look for things that are new. So you can't just say we've been doing a great job and we're going to do more of it. They want to see that you're developing and you're expanding the program, you know, if you didn't have the I maybe you add that, you know, the, the career mentors maybe if you didn't have that you add that so things that you, you, you know, in terms of renewal. They want to have a progress report for the last five years. So that's also fairly extensive, and that takes takes time to do, you know, if you've been doing progress reports you can kind of gather from all of those and and coalesce them. And then of course you'll need your letters of support from the institution from the steering committee members, all of those, you know, somebody, either you or somebody sits there and writes them because, you know, if you expect that others are going to be writing these for you. You know, if they're going to take like weeks so I usually just draft them or work with someone with me to draft them, and then submit them to the individual for placement on letterhead and signature. The data tables there you know the T32 I hate to say that it's all about the data tables but there are lots of them this is a staggered from my grant, the data table content. And you really need administrative help. You need somebody to sit there and pull this together for you. If you're at an academic center and university some of this will be maintained by your training grants program office so the list of all the T32 at the university, you know your program office should have that the, you know, participating meeting faculty members, you'll have to put that together. The census of participating departments and interdepartmental programs. You know the census of this to me was like that this was the toughest because you had to go to each department and say, give me the number like here, I'll show you. And so here's the participating program, get the total faculty of each, that's not too difficult to get the participating faculty that's not too difficult to get. But then you go, how many pre doctoral people do you have in your, your program in your department, you know, how many and then there's another one that's how many postdoctoral, you know, I mean it's kind of like and then. So the whole thing it goes to you, you have one for pre doctoral postdoctoral. They tend to want both at least in ours they wanted both and so you know sometimes finding out like how many pre doctoral trainees and postdoctoral trainees they have MDs and PhDs throughout the entire department. People kind of look at you like oh I don't know we haven't calculated that for a couple years since our last training grant. So, anyway, so overall my advice is start early, you want to contact the program officer, get good institutional support. You want to include as many funded mentors as possible. People who have demonstrated mentorship and in funding as available and they don't have to be in radiology. And then most importantly, you want to get good administrative support. So, thank you so much. I know people have started asking questions and I'll let the speakers, you know, remind them to take a look at that if they'd like to answer it in the chat box or save it for later. And it is my great pleasure to introduce Alex line. She is my current lab manager, but before that she managed the T32 program at UCSD for about five years. She also was a UCSD native. She was an undergrad here in neuroscience. And so I think it's really nice to have a lab manager who has a science background I think it really helps. And it's my pleasure to introduce her she's going to talk about supporting the T32 program and its application. And go take it away Alex. Kind introduction, Dr. Rocko Penner. Yeah, by the way, she just survived an hour one deadline with me yesterday and she, she stayed up later than I did. So, can you see my screen. Yes. Great. So I'm going to jump right in. There are currently 30 funded T32 programs in the states that are run out of radiology departments with a handful of institutions having multiple T32s run from their radiology departments including, I think Harvard and Pitts and Stanford. So everyone does it differently. But I'm going to be talking a little bit about what I do or what I did as an administrative support. So I'm going to focus on two things, there are many things that go into administrative support there are fiscal considerations there are CGME considerations that we're not focusing on that today I want to focus just on the renewal application, their progress report, and the daunting tables that Dr Woodard introduced. For those of us who have been grants administrators for a while, there are a lot of familiar components that are not daunting the bio sketches boilerplates publication compliance, drafting letters of support. Those are all things that I do for other grants outside of T32, the novel part for T32 is specifically the tables. So with bio sketches for T32, a lot of this will be familiar to all of us, you check to make sure that the bio sketches that you've gathered are the current version and that all of the instructions for that current versioning are adhered to with boilerplates to give you a sense the boilerplate I think for our last application that I'll be showing and focusing on for this presentation. Facilities and resources was about like 12 to 15 pages for our one that we submitted yesterday facilities and resources about five pages. But one thing that I do as an administrative support is help to assemble a first draft of the facilities and resources, make sure that it's spell checked that it's cogent. So, let's talk a little bit about the scale of the tables. For an hour one, the enrollment tables are about two pages. The tables, and the amount of content for a 10 year continuing renewal application on T32 was about 50 pages of table content. I have to organizing principles when I approach a renewal or an RPPR. The first is to start from the outside in so start by gathering information from the institution, then the mentors prior trainees and then current trainees. And the other one is to just start with a directly reported data before moving to the summary data, I find those two organizing principles help me to face what Dr Woodard calls the daunting tables and manage them with a little bit of ease and sometimes even a little bit of fun. Now is a really good time to step back and consider what makes an effective T32 administrator. There are a lot of things like grit, patience, effective communication, one needs to be able to pester people and remind them and follow up with diplomacy. But there is a lot of herding cats. So to give you a sense more specifically for what kind of herding cats. For our 10 year renewal we had 41 prior trainees we had 30 to 31 mentors, a couple of program directors, and then of course the advisory committee members so there are about 100 cats to herd. So these are all of these cats that we are herding to put into these tables, if you start with the top arrow. We start with the institution's federal training grants outside of the proposed training grant and then moving clockwise mentors prior trainees current trainees, and finally working from the outside in. Sorry, the current trainees, and then the current and prior applicants. So this is a summary of all of the data that's going in this doesn't look too overwhelming right just five sources for the table data. So I start with the institution, working from the outside in. And then I gather Institute institutional data, you'll see the first four columns on this table. It's a great way to start, it can all be reported from NIH reporter and then working with central grants people we can do the final five to nine columns. And so that's working from the outside in, that's getting the direct data first and then following that with the summary data. So this usually has this data it's it's who's applied to the program who was admitted to the program and characterizing them. The next stage, and you'll see these are these are some pictures of our faculty mentors in the program is is gathering data from the mentors. So, I start first you can gather a lot of this data just from looking at their CVS usually mentors have a copy of their CV on hand that they can send you right away. And you can assemble an account of what their history is with mentorship with trainees, and you can get a first draft of this table, done pretty early. So, this is an example of how to move from directly reported data to summary data. Dr. Woodard, you mentioned this table in your presentation. The CSD has many many departments that we did collaborate with. It's not just a radiology focused mentorship program. So this is the summary of of all of the departments that we're collaborating with and all the mentors for former trainees so it's it the next step after gathering institutional data and gathering mentorship data. The next sort of inner circle is to work with former trainee data. And one of the benchmarks benchmarks of success for the clinician scientist program is whether these prior trainees have gone into academic medicine, so we want to gather information about where they've gone what institutions, if they've gotten any funding. And then the final kind of inner circle is what are the activities that our current trainees are working on. You can see that when Dr. Raquel Penner was a trainee, a long time ago now. She was very, very prolific she published a lot and we gathered all of the data from all of the trainees. So that's kind of my brief overview of how I organize my time with the renewal application. To give you a sense for kind of the scope and scale and the progress report which needs to be done every year, it's about three times the administrative work of a R01 progress report. And to give a little bit more of a specific sense for how much time it takes. I'd say that supporting a T32 program is about a 20% full time efforts throughout the year. I'm sure it's different for everyone but I think that that's as a rule of thumb, pretty consistent here at UCSD. I start with checking PubMed compliance for publications. So this is something that a lot of trainees are very green at and don't know about, but if your publications are not compliant. It can hold up funding for the subsequent year. So, this is a graphic that describes the process for checking the compliance, it takes a long time, it's important to start this early. As an administrator I go on PubMed, make sure that all of the current trainees, everything that they've published has a PMC ID. If it doesn't, they need to submit and get an NIH manuscript system ID prior to the progress report submission. So this details kind of the timeline and some of the steps for that. The next thing I do is email trainees for their current and updated description of their projects, their mentors, their publications, what the focus of their research is. This is assembled in a prose format, not a table format, and submitted every year. And then the final thing is check city certification compliance. So, before we can do a renewal, we have to make sure that everyone's up to date, if they have any human subjects research participation. So this should give you a sense just for what I'm doing as an admin, where I start, and how I organize my time and responsibilities. I want to talk a little bit about timeline here because I know that both Drs. Woodard and Dr. Mankoff are really excellent at organizing their time and it's starting early and that is so critical, and I applaud you. I do, I think this is really important to mention as a grants administrator because one of the most, I'd say valuable attributes would be adaptability. So this is a six month timeline and ideally you have a really strong program outline at least six months in advance. Your program plan is drafted, you're in great shape. This is actually R01 material that we're looking at but, and then four months in, you are just refining it, you're getting your advisory committee members to commit and you're sort of strategizing. Two months in, you have your budget and your budget justification worked out. Two months in, you have your letters of support going out to everyone, and you're getting them back. And that last month is really just used for iteration, refinement. This is my ideal timeline. This is how I would love to see every application go. It's really important to talk about actual timeline, and every investigator and every program director has their own timeline. So typically six months out, we have a beautiful outline, we have something started, really gestating program. And then about two months in, we begin iterating on the program plan. About a month in, we have a budget, letters of support are going out about two weeks in advance, and then iteration is really in that last week. A lot of last minute that happens. And I'd say that, and I think my colleague Nova, who does T32, agrees with me on this, that about the last month before a T32 application, usually a dedicated admin is about 50% effort. So to give you a scale for sort of a sense of time and dedication in that last month, it's a serious commitment. I also want to talk about what makes it fun. You know, there's a lot of tedium in populating these tables. A lot. This is a picture of a Halloween party where two trainees, they're included in this picture, one of them as Lady Gaga, the other one had dressed up as his PI. And the one who's dressed up as Lady Gaga just became faculty at UCSD. The other one who dressed up as PI got a faculty position at UCSF. And when I heard about their faculty positions, it had a really special and meaningful effect on me because I felt like I was, you know, I'd worked really hard on them becoming clinician scientists and I was really invested in their success. So the times that the program has been most fun for me to help with are the times that I've gotten to really work closely with the trainees, to know what they were working on, to show up to all of their program curricula. I think those are the times that I've really connected the most with the program and I encourage and urge all program directors to engage their administrators as much as possible, allow them to participate and really have a hands-on relationship with the program. I want to acknowledge Nova Barkley and Jill Weller. Their pictures are here. They're critical to our T32, the success of our program. Nova helped me with my presentation. Pam's absolutely right that it takes a village and our T32 program would not be as successful without both of them. So that's everything I have today. Thank you. Great, thank you. Not only super valuable information, we are staying on track for our agenda timeline too. We definitely are wanting to make sure we have time for questions. So there are questions in the chat. If we are not getting to them as we're going along and responding by typing, we will make sure and get to them in the Q&A session. Right now, I would like to turn to our next speaker, Dr. David Mankoff. He is the Matthew J. Wilson Professor and Vice Chair for Research in Radiology at the Perlman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Mankoff is a board-certified nuclear medicine radiologist and holds a PhD in bioengineering from Penn, also focusing on PET instrumentation. So nuclear medicine is his focus clinically, and his research focuses on molecular imaging of cancer, primarily on breast cancer, emphasizing molecular imaging biomarkers for precision oncology. In addition to his research and clinical interests, he's the Associate Director for Education and Training for Penn's Abramson Cancer Center, a mentor for Penn's Medical Scientist Training Program, an MSTR program as well, which I'm not as familiar with the acronym as this, so I'll leave that to you. He is also the Program Director and PI for Penn's NIBIB T32 grant, and also nationally serves as the co-chair for the RSNA Research Vice Chair Group. So he also brings tremendous experience and perspective to our talk. We'll be talking about managing and maintaining a T32 grant. Thank you, Janie. Can everybody see my slides? I'm going to go into presenter mode. Okay. I made that introduction so long, I'm sorry that I have to cut the talk short. But these are great talks. I want to compliment Pam and Alice for great talks. I'm going to talk a little bit about maintaining a T32 grant program. I almost titled this as, oh my God, oy vey, I got a T32, now what do I have to do? And you'll see a little bit of that as we go through. I'm going to do this a little bit less from the standpoint of some of the NIH and NIBIB reporting and a little bit more from program management, but you'll pretty quickly see after Pam and Alex's presentation where that is. I do want to thank the people that are involved in this with me, especially Beverly Collins and Mike McCandless, who I think are both on this talk. And you'll see all the work involved in this involves Mike as well as my co-program chairs, Terence Kane and Mitch Dahl. So I'm going to start a little bit with types of T32 programs. There's been a couple of questions in the chat about what about T32 programs that are not GME, you know, resident or fellow oriented programs. And then focusing, I think, on the clinician trainees, but including the other programs, we'll talk about trainee selection. So you got the grant, you got to pull people into the program, trainee guidance and review throughout their years, trainee completion and follow up, and then grant reporting, the RPRR. Alex covered elements of this in her talk. There's a big progress report when you go in for your renewal, but there's an annual progress report that we now call the RPRR. I'm not even trying to know what those initials stand for anymore. And you have to do that annually. I will say that in addition to having just gone through one of my RPRRs that took a little bit of time, as Alex said, you should take extra time for these RPRRs. And Bev and I have had conversations, as Mike said, we need to get ours started because it's coming up in about two months. So that's how long it takes. All right. So there's really a few different types of programs. There's the pre-doctoral program, which is really designed for folks getting PhDs. We have one in radiology that we lead in radiology, but it's typically affiliated with the basic science department graduate group. Most radiology programs don't have, radiology departments don't have their own graduate groups. And so that helps quite a bit with the overall management of the program. When we think about postdoctoral, I like to divide the world into two types of postdocs. The traditional postdoctoral fellow who got a PhD has finished his or her PhD and is going on for a basic science postdoc. Sometimes those folks are also MD PhDs. Or the GME training, the graduate medical education training, which is the resident fellow who's typically an MD or an MD PhD. At Penn, we have three T32s held within the radiology department. Penn loves T32s. I think we may be up to like 80 across the whole institution. So it's not unusual to find T32s across the place. We have one as a pre-doctoral program, which actually is a very, I think in many ways, pioneering program that's run by Jim G. Andrew Maidment and Zach Ives. It's done in conjunction with our bioengineering program. And it actually has bioengineering students be medical students for the first year and a half before they go into their labs. It's a great program. Felix Worley, one of our basic scientists who works in MR, has a more traditional postdoctoral basic science program that is all about training in a variety of MR-based methods. And then the one that was mentioned and that is part of our research track residency is led by myself, Terrence Gade, and was originally created by Mitch Shaw, maybe if not the first one, then one of the earliest NIBIB physician scientist training programs. Just for orientation, we're the program that uses the fourth year, or one of the programs that uses the fourth year as the research year. So there's a fair amount of time leading up to the time that they're actually on our grant. All right, what about trainee selection? So pre-doctoral gets pretty easy. These are almost always aligned with a PhD program admissions, and most programs will use this to support those PhDs before they become aligned with the labs, after which typically grant funding or possibly an individual F grant can support them. And in some cases, there may be a separate sub-application to a program. Our T32 interfaces program is a sub-application to bioengineering. Postdoctoral GME can often be aligned with residency match selection. We have registered our research track as a separate match. And so that happens as part of our resident selection, which makes life easier in a lot of ways. I know some of the programs will also do the selection post hoc and take people from their existing programs to move them in, and some have a combination of that. In certain ways, the postdoctoral basic are the most challenging ones. There aren't that many programs that recruit postdocs simply for the T32 from the outside, although some do. A number of them will select from people that are within the program or coming sometimes from other programs, and that's one where it takes a fair amount of work. We're fortunate enough to have a biomedical postdoc program that helps us with these kinds of things. But as folks will know, we're struggling with this, for example, in the cancer center right now, trying to coordinate across programs for these types of T32s is going to be a little tricky. Okay, a little bit of a busy slide, but let me just go through the elements of training guidance and review. So number one, trainees should have regular mentoring meetings and review. That's a really important part of a T32 program. The scientific mentors that are chosen in part because they're active researchers in the area of T32s. Jenny Ben Cardino had asked about funding support. Generally, they need funding support to support the research environment to document their track record. They should have at least monthly meetings, probably more frequent if they're really guiding these trainees through appropriate research. Many places, including ours, will have a program mentor. This is often the PI or co-PI or one of the senior people in the grant. And the job of the program mentor is much less having to do with the science rather than just making sure people are going through the program okay. And in particular, if they're having challenges with a program or even challenges with a scientific mentor, you want to have somebody that will provide that backup. There can be a formal mentoring committee, especially if this is for a PhD. Sometimes in these one-year programs, it's a little bit more just the scientific and program mentor. And there should be coordination with the parent program, PhD program. In our case, we have pretty tight coordination with the help of Mary Scanlon, our residency and fellowship program directors with those entities. So what should be covered? The scientific mentor really needs to think about the research planning and progress, identify any challenges and pitfalls, and then begin to have plans for completion and next steps in training as you get towards the end of the coverage period. Again, the program mentor is going to have higher level of guidance, high level of research review to make sure that it fits the T32 training scope. Also helps with challenges and pitfalls and wants to plan very carefully for completion and transition. There is need to at least once annually, we do it twice annually, to document all of these reviews. And in particular, we use actually a postdoctoral form that Penn provides us to do this for our research track resident during the training year. Okay, so let me just tell you a little bit about how we handle this work. T32, our research residency track T32 has a dedicated fourth year of radiology residency. We actually emphasize the clinical program early, but we then research as we go through. We have a mentoring plan that includes program mentorship with myself or Terence Gade and once in a while Mitch Schnall these days. So that we'll meet them once at the end of the first year, once by mid year in the second year. And then as they get closer to their research year, we'll meet with them more frequently to make sure that they're hitting their fourth year with their feet moving in the program running. And at that point, they will meet regularly with a scientific mentor and at least twice and sometimes three times with myself over time. So one of the things you got to plan for as a PI is the amount of time that you're going to have mentoring meetings, because you're going to need a number of them throughout your trainees. And as you noticed in our program, we have a sort of non-NIBIB T32 covered program that's part of our residency. And I do meet with some of those folks before they get to their final training year. Again, evaluation uses a Penn postdoc form in that fourth year and that's pretty important and our residency helps us coordinate that. So you've selected your trainees, you've guided them and mentored them through their training. What happens when they're all finished? Well, you have to, number one, plan for completion of any ongoing research and papers. And again, this can get tricky in these one year programs where it can be hard to get everything completed in that year. We need to talk about plans to continue research if needed and appropriate. It almost always is. An ongoing or new project that may be happening and help navigate a change in venue, if applicable. For example, we strongly encourage our folks in our program to stay in our fellowships. We can't chain their feet to the floor. The ACGME will not allow that. But one of the reasons for that is they're able to continue their research and we can tailor our fellowships to take care of these research track physician scientist training programs. We do have folks that go to other places and are very successful. And one of the things that I do together with the trainee is navigate with whoever is going to be the mentor, either program or research on the other side to make sure the research can continue. It's really important to have 360 degree feedback and trainee review of the program. And as we get towards the end of the year, we're starting to schedule these things for, you know, sort of May and June coming up. I have basically an exit interview with each one of the trainees, what was good and most importantly, how can the program improve? Now, what are some other things that you need to track as you're hitting this point? You need to track papers and presentations and plan for the future. You saw those very complicated tables that Pam and Alex showed you. You have to get everything registered in PMC ID and PMC and credit the T32. And very importantly, you have to set up the discussion for the future. And the most successful programs will set up a yearly communication with all their trainees for an update. I'm going to show you a prop. One of my training programs that I was involved in is our Penn MD PhD program, who does almost perfect every time it goes back in for a new one. Part of the reason they do that is they just do a fantastic job of keeping in touch with with all the people that have been in the program, no matter how old they are, including me. And then there's this thing called X-Train in the NIH websites in the comments that you'll need to fill out. And somebody at least needs to understand this documentation. I know it cursorily. Fortunately, Mike and Bev understand it much better than I do. But it's very important part of what you do and all of these documentations. OK, some trainee follow up principles. You should follow your trainees for life. You hope your T32 lasts forever. You hope that that carries your trainees through all of their careers. And so really try to set up an approach that will do that. Right now, that comes down in our program to Bev tracking these folks down. But we have been keeping an eye on different approaches that will allow some automation and use of surveys. Documentation is really key for your T32 renewal. You hear that. What additional research training did these folks have? What was their employment, especially as you heard from Alex, faculty positions who are trying to train academics? What are their publications? Do they get future NIH funding? That's actually a pretty good sign that they're having a success in a research career. And importantly, you want to ask your trainees when you're keeping up with them, what has been the ongoing impact of the T30 training on their career? That may change as their career moves forward. We're talking about this in a number of venues, including our cancer center, trying to have an opportunity for building an ongoing alumni community. And anywhere from our CNA parties to more formal research trainee programs. And I think there'll be evolutions on how best to do this using social media. So let me just take a moment on the RPRR, because this is one of the forms you have to fill out annually. These are non-competitive renewals. So as long as you're following the rules, you should get your money. But getting it on time means starting early and submitting it two months ahead of the deadline. You'll get lots of reminders from NIH. And again, some people view this as a pain and try to get through it. But, you know, those five-year renewals come very, very quickly. And if you've been paying attention to these elements in your RPRR, it goes much easier, despite all the things that Alex told you to have to do. You can only imagine how difficult that is if you haven't been keeping up. So you need to report on the current and completing trainees. A current slash completing if they're one year. A description of the new trainees coming into the program. And if it's appropriate, talk about their selection process. Publications, publications, publications need to be uploaded and have a PMC ID and verified. And again, this always seems to more work than I think, and I know if I think it's more work than I know our staff and Bev especially think about that. You need updates on the prior trainings, the training table, if you've been doing this then it's not quite as horrible when you have to do your full review and then budget reporting and any plan changes in PI or MPI. I've now been the PI of this grant for about six or seven years and in the last cycle, we switched the PI from Mitch to myself and the current MPI has warned that he'll probably get switched in again at some point. And I can tell you, Alex mentioned working in advance, we did, I was obsessing about the fact that this program had been going on for a while and I did not want to be the person that lost it. And so we really started the process about six months ahead of time and actually submitted it about a week early and it did quite well. There is, and I don't remember the details, some slightly special reporting that happens when you renewal about how your progress report ends up. This caused us some bureaucratic challenges when we did our renewal. And so as you get to your renewal, just make sure you understand how to handle your progress report for that year and the RPRR. All right, T32 management, getting towards the end of this. There are trainee research-related funds. These need to go towards the trainee support, you know, many times trainees will want a computer to be able to carry out what they're doing and that's appropriate if that's what they're using it for. And so these funds should be reviewed by your budgetary staff. That's Mike McCandless in our place. And then the PI should approve all purchases and expenditures and review them. You have to, I mentioned, you have to interface with the parent training program if it's applicable, the PhD graduate group, GME residence and fellowship, which is a pleasure for us here at Penn with the way our program is run, but it's very important. Regular review and update of the mentor list. I think most of us probably only do this at renewal, but it's probably not a bad idea to review it as time going on. And if you have any challenges with mentors as you go through, I think it's important to renew whether or not that person should stay on the mentor list and at least perhaps get some discussion and counseling about some of the issues that they ran in, that he or she ran into. There's some unexpected challenges, but you should expect them. A trainee who's unable to enroll or to complete training. We had one of our trainees had a dropout because of family issues that required for her to go back home and not stay within our program. There can be mentor or research lab changes. Sometimes somebody who looked like a really well-funded mentor runs out of funding or changes their approach and may or may not be the right person for the program. And there's always going to be these unexpected research challenges, unexpected personal challenges. And at some level, the lead program staff and the program PIs are in a position that it's their responsibility to manage that. So wow, that was a lot of talking in a few minutes, and it really does take a village to run a T32. Who lives in that village? The PD or PI and co-PDs or MPIs. This is in our grant, myself, Terence, Kate, and Mitch Knoll. You have to allocate time. And it says you should allocate at least 5% to 10% time for this. Note that the grant does not support you. So I think as Pam pointed out, you really need institutional support for the PIs. The institution and the department have to want to support you. As Alex mentioned, don't underestimate the amount of time this will take for program staff. The program coordinator and financial management, this actually takes a fair amount of time, even though the grant on the scale of many grants is not a huge amount of dollars. And the program staff needs to work with the trainees, manage non-financial documentation, including follow-up that Bev does for us here. It's a really important role. And supporting those folks and getting institutional support for that, the grant may help you with that, but you often need institutional support, is important. There are program faculty and staff that are going to be very important, including the residency directors, Mary Scanlon and Evan Siegelman, who does the selection process here. Overall, department and administration leadership and finance, that's Mitch Knoll on the faculty side and Bill Darcy on the side, they really have to be on your side for this. This is a labor of love and an important part of the mission. It's not a money-making venue for the institution by any way. And then there have to be relevant institutional supports. We have the fortune of having a biomedical postdoc program, which helps us with some of the tables, but never, still can supply everything that we need to do ourselves. And then you need support beyond the T32 and the department, the school and the university for a variety of things, including outreach management and overall program support. So some closing advice, plan the program for long-term success. Think about recruitment and sustainability. Build this infrastructure, especially the staff support, which I think all of us have told you is absolutely critical. Seek institutional support. If you're going to undertake one of these and you don't really feel like your institution is supporting it, it may not be wise or possible to do it. And so it's important to work out and assure that you've got institutional support before you move forward. And then the other thing is, if you have the catastrophe of getting one of these funded, I'm just joking, it's good to know what the requirements and processes are. And so it's important, and you'll do this as you go through your application, learn the rules for trainee selection, startup completion, learn about things like RPR and X-Train. Yes, I have wonderful staff that does a lot of that for me, but if I didn't understand how to navigate it a little bit, it'd be very hard. And then other rules and guidance on diversity, financial oversight, documentation. You heard from Pam that there is a relatively new requirement in the last five to 10 years of having an external advisory board for these as well. So with that, I'm going to stop sharing and go into the Q&A period. And thank you again, Janie and Pam and Tori and Fiona, others for putting this together and allowing me to participate again. So wonderful, wonderful program. Thank you guys all for all of the speakers. You guys were great, and I appreciate your dedication to this. We do have some questions in the chat window. You're welcome to ask, just put your hand up if you have a question from the audience here or go ahead and ask the question in the chat. And maybe I'll follow up on Pam's response to Janie Ben Cardino. Janie, the T32 program, T32 funding is not particularly friendly to foreign trainees. You need to typically have a US citizenship or green card as Pam sent out. Right now, these are not programs that encourage sort of extra US diversity. Within the US, they'll definitely encourage diversity, and if folks have a green card, you can bring people who are not necessarily US citizens. But people who are in this business and do postdocs will all complain that one of the challenges they run into is that these training grants don't necessarily take people who are not US citizens. Do they have to be affiliated to the university where you have the program, or can they be like, you know, freelancers? Maybe others know the answer to the question. I think it would be very hard to run one of these that is outside of a university-based program. I don't know if anybody else is- Right. Yeah, I could answer that. I mean, so, you know, the program would be within your department, but we have taken T32 trainees who have come in for a year. So for instance, you know, this year we have somebody who is doing imaging with one of our vascular surgeons, and he's coming in from another institution, and he would like to put him on the T32. So he's going to, you know, he's sort of coming in specifically to work in the surgeon's lab for a year. And the project actually he's going to be working on is a combined grant, an NIH grant that the two of us, you know, the vascular surgeon and I have, we're MPIs on. So while it's not common, we have had some people who have been outside of Washington University who've said, yeah, I want to come to WashU for a year of training, I'm going to be in somebody's lab, I'm a resident in good standing as a vascular surgery fellow, I think at, you know, it's in one of the programs in Georgia, you know, and it's going to come in. So you can do that, but I think they usually like to see it kind of built around, you know, something at your own home institution. But they have no problem with people coming in for a year from elsewhere. Thank you. I will close, Jenny, by saying that some of the foundations that support these teaching and training programs, I've done work with Coleman that has some of these supports can sometimes be a little bit more friendly to unusual situations that are outside of standard academic universities. So another thing to keep an eye on. Yeah, I can tell you a caveat that we had at UCSD where we had a Canadian citizen who was accepted accidentally into our program. She went to a US medical school, but you know, we had to when that was sort of discovered that she wasn't a US citizen, it had to, you know, we had to decline the position. So I think that that's an important process when you're doing the interviewing, you know, just because someone speaks English very well does not mean that they are a US citizen. And, and that has to be taken into consideration to protect yourself and that spot, you know, so we lost a spot that year because of that error. Monica Fernandez has a question. It's specifically, I didn't know if you wanted me to ask, but I'll go ahead and read your question out there. Is there additional resources for administrators and training, training courses, anything that we are aware of that we could share as a resource? So usually your, your schools will have this. We have, you know, the whole university has a training grants office and there are, we have sessions for program directors of T32s and I get emails where, you know, they invite me to attend, you know, to, to attend those sessions. And they also have them for administrators of T32s. So you should check with your training grants office at your home institution. There's a new thing that the T32 programs want something on mentoring the mentors and Washington University has started doing that. It's kind of a half-hearted, I shouldn't say this, but it's sort of a half-hearted attempt at this point, you know, not fully developed, but at least they've started doing something along those lines to meet that requirement. So if you're at a academic institution, there often will be, you know, programs for administrators of T32s. I think, David, you said Penn has like 90 or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. We have those same, those same seminars for both staff. And we have like 60 some odd, at least I watched you because we, I, you don't have to list them all. I think part of the purpose of this seminar today is to organize a radiology specific one. So, you know, I think that I'll be at, it's only an hour and a half, you know, we'd like to be able to create a community amongst our radiology specific T32 administrative staff and program directors so that we can all encourage more of these programs within our fields. I think that there's a lot to be said when it's specific to our fields. Yeah, that's true. Although those offices are great. Like if you're trying to figure out like, what, what do I put in this box of my table? You know, in other words, when we first were doing this, it's like, does this mean this or that, you know, and then they're often there, they've done it so many times they can go, oh, it's definitely this. And, you know, you get your questions answered. Yeah. There's also a couple of reliably successful, especially if there've been good programs. As I mentioned, the MD-PhD is almost always, if it's an MSTP program at T32, and I find them some of the most knowledgeable people in our institution. There may also be centers that will have some commonality between different people working in the same area. In our cancer center, it's still a work in progress, we're trying to develop a T32 support system that will help guide program directors and actually help the ability to share slots between different locations. But I think, Pam, I think for most of us, it's an institution that likes T32s and supports them and that depends upon them, should have a pretty well-formed training grant or post-doc office. I have a question in regards to, I know it takes a village, how small can the village be? So, what is the smallest number of trainees that you can have enrolled in a T32? I can go ahead and answer this question, because when I first put in the T32, our T32 years ago, they said I asked for too many trainees. So they usually don't want you to start with too many. The number of mentors can be legion, you can put in like 30 or 40, as many as you want. But for the number of trainees, they usually don't want to award more than two to three slots per year. So at this point, we also, I mean, we only have three slots now, and I think we move up to four in the middle, and I think you kind of want to be, maybe I'm wrong, but I think you kind of want to be conservative with NIH-appointed slots, because you are penalized if you don't fill them. And so you want to be sure that you're going to be able to fill, otherwise, when you submit your next cycle, then they'll go, well, you know, I don't know, David, you could maybe even comment. Yeah, no, we can talk about an experience from that, but Jenny, the number of slots is relatively small. What takes the village is everybody else. So if you had, unless you had a really focused program, and you had three slots, you probably need at least 10 to 15 mentors, and probably more than that, you know, depending upon what the program is. So you've got to manage all those mentors. As you build up the program, which you should build up at least over five years, if you get one of these things funded, then you've got to track all those folks. So it's not so much that any individual class is that big or overwhelming, you know, we have three research track residents per year at Penn, but just the infrastructure to get there is what takes the village. And I should point out, oh, go ahead. What is the average funding for each mentee in the program? Alex's slide. It's based on PGY year. So it's in the NIH, if you go to, you can Google it, it's on an NIH website. And the PGY year is calculated a little bit differently than the way we calculate it, you know, in radiology. But because I think they calculate your internship year as PGY zero. So you go there and you find your PGY year, and that's it. So when you write your budget, you'll be saying I want to have, you know, X number of PGY fours and X number of PGY threes. And so and that dollar amount is fixed. So if you're paying your residents more than that, you know, the department has to make a contribution to, to, to, to fill, you know, fill that gap. So the budget's very low. I mean, this is really, it's more for the infrastructure. At first I thought, you know, when Rich and I talked about it, our chair, and that it was going to be like for the prestige, I'm sitting there going, you know, you can't eat prestige. But it's really more for the infrastructure and the organization of the whole program. And I think it has elevated our research substantially. But you don't really do this for the money, number one. And the other thing I was going to say, in terms of village, you can be a mentor on multiple T32s. So it's not like, you know, if somebody is a mentor on another T32, they can't be a mentor on your T32. We have, I'm a mentor on, I don't know, three or four T32s. And sometimes trainees will, you know, ask to work with you. And sometimes they won't. So, you know, at any given time, I maybe have one T32 trainee, but it might be from our T32, cardiology's T32, you know, the pre-doctoral T32. So. That's a nice segue into, there's discussion in the chat about coordination across departments, across recruiting. Nova, in particular, has mentioned she has experience. So could we ask you to unmute and comment? Hi. Yeah. I'm actually a coordinator. I've been a T32 coordinator for like 16 plus years now. I coordinate four different T32s across four different departments at the CSD School of Medicine and the School of Public Health. I have one, I coordinate for post-doctoral, pre-doctoral, and residence. So I have family or cardiovascular disease epidemiology, healthy aging, radiology now, I took over for Alex, and bioinformatics. Could you comment about potentially a strategy for success, something that you feel like has contributed to successful recruitment across these programs? Definitely, I think the most important thing is probably institutional support. Like everybody else has mentioned, if you don't have that, you can't run a successful grant. Like everybody else has also mentioned, the additional funding from your departments, from your schools, and the time allotment for the PIs to run these grants is super important. Also, having that institutional support, knowing that administratively, these take a lot of work. What specific programs did you have at UCSD when you started out that helped you become an expert? I think that's what we want to try and help other people that don't have the same 16-year experience as you have. Where do they go to ask questions? Where would you go as you started off to ask questions within UCSD, and what programs and training did you get initially? UCSD School of Medicine, in particular, Health Sciences has a... We don't have a training grant office per se at UCSD, which is unfortunate, but it is what it is. We do have a training grant specialist in our Research Service Corps, and she actually was a great help for me. That's Jill Weller, who Alex mentioned as well. She helps people in general, like help with their grants and such like that. But that's one person. When I put in my first T32 16, 17 years ago, I didn't have much support, frankly. I reached out to other coordinators at the School of Medicine and drew on their support and drew on their experience, but we don't have a training grant group or a training office. Well, thank you. I think that that's a good point for other programs, because I know faculty and administrative staff alike, you can still be successful in a T32 program without having all of that support. And so I hope that you guys can recognize each other's faces and names here across institutes and hopefully be constructive in helping each other for a mutual goal of getting more people trained in our fields as clinician scientists or interested in research, at least. I think that's true. I would agree, Rebecca. I think some of the ones of us that have these big training programs, they actually add complexity in some cases. I'm going to ask Nova a question about that in a second, but it doesn't take that. You do need, however, substantial support for your program that can't all come from funding. And I think you've heard that. Nova, an offline conversation, I got two of the folks that work with me in the Cancer Center. We're trying to coordinate a bunch of T32s. So we haven't really thought about it being the same person to coordinate across that, but we may check up with you offline to get some pointers. Thank you. I think coordinating across programs is fantastic, whether you do it institutionally or whether you do it through the Nova program. Yeah. And one other thing I was going to add in that when you have these other programs, for instance, we have mentors from different departments and in exchange, we say that if somebody is interested in imaging, they can also apply for our T32. And it's important to get letters from those individuals that commit the salary above the cap for those trainees. So realizing that they only get the $54,000 or $58,000 based on PGY year and that they agree to pay for insurance and other, because again, the insurance only covers the individual. It doesn't cover the families. So I usually get a letter from the departments that are participating, both as mentors and their trainees that kind of state that, yes, we are supportive and if you have a trainee of ours, we will provide the salary. And it's good to have that in writing too, because when you later on take on a surgery resident, you go back to the chair of surgery and go, hey, you've got to pay their salary above the cap. It's not a surprise. You have that letter too. So it's good, not just for the review process, but just for posterity. That's terrific. Thank you, Pam. I'm just looking at our attendees and realizing we have folks from many institutions, some of which also have experience with T32s. Would anyone like to share their experience in any way? Perhaps not then. If not, I'm just, Rebecca, you just put something in the chat, but do you want to unmute and just share? It's hard to read. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think that an enlightened department will understand that it's not a loss in cost when you have to support a program like this. It's an investment. It's really expensive to recruit good faculty. And so if you're able to sort of inbreed your own good faculty and hire at least a portion of them to stay on as faculty, it's a success. And it looks like, you know, our programs existed for a little bit and it looks like, you know, we've helped other institutes recruit some of our successful T32s into their faculty. So you really, and you're helping feed the larger goal. And I think it's, if you get to keep some of these people on staff, it's probably not a big loss in sort of funding and support for this program if you're able to do that recruitment successfully. I will second that too. I think right now recruiting is a huge issue and recruiting physician scientists is an especially tricky issue. And we were able to successfully recruit a faculty member by actually tracking a resident into a fellowship program with a T32. And now we actually have a faculty member who is well-trained and kind of really poised to take off in terms of her academic trajectory. What it did require was an extension of her training. So typically a clinical fellowship is one year. And so she had to make a commitment to extend her training period in order to participate. But I think it has paid dividends for internal pipeline development. Yeah, I will emphasize that if for no other reason, nepotism is a good one here. We've got many of our ranks filled with research track trainees. I suspect we have some of them on the phone right now, and it's a really great program. It's not so much that there is huge amounts of dollars in this, but it creates a spot that would be otherwise very tough and actually fairly expensive to create. And that's what these programs are all about is creating the opportunity. So at least funding the postdoc and some support for the postdoc is not the barrier. But it's certainly not a get-rich-quick scheme. No, yeah, you're right. It's not the money. It's not the money. It's, you know, the total grant over five years is probably like maybe 1.3 million. But the recruitment, I mean, we've recruited six of our T32 trainees as faculty. And then others, you know, it's more of the long haul. Some of them have joined as, you know, right into clinical faculty with research programs. Others are doing K awards. So I mean, it's a little bit more of a longer haul, but you're playing the long game, basically. Maybe we give it another chance for any final comments or questions. All right, hearing none. I believe we will actually close a tiny bit early, but in addition to taking a village to put together a T32 and maintain it and renew it, it takes a village really to put together these webinars. So I definitely want to thank the, well, my co-moderator, Rebecca, who actually generated this idea many years ago, and our speakers, Pam and Alex and Dave, and then also the RS&A staff who has spent many months doing all of the cat-herding required to put this together and make it go smoothly, especially RS&A staff, Tori and Fiona Miller, who is a key part of the Department of Research. All right, any other closing remarks, Rebecca? Thank you all again. I've really enjoyed this and hope to see you next year. And I encourage you guys to help us start this community offline. Absolutely. I think, and everyone here, thank you for participating. Your interest in this is tremendous, and really it's important for building a radiology research community. Thank you very much. Thanks. Thank you to the organizers, including Tori and Fiona. So this is great. Absolutely.

T32 training grant

research training

clinician scientists

radiology

future research leaders

mentorship

institutional support

program management

collaboration

networking

program renewal

career trajectories